Talk: Patrik Schumacher on Fierce Debates, Facebook and the Future of Zaha Hadid Architects
Patrik Schumacher interviewed by Paul Keskeys for Architizer, December 2016
Patrik: Well, this email also caused some kind of confusion. It was a mishap to some extent. The email was misunderstood in the press and engendered speculation about a potential rift in the firm, as if the firm wanted to distance itself from me. None of this was the case. There is full solidarity and loyalty here to my leadership. Most of our staff, like indeed the larger part of the WAF audience seem to agree with many of my positions, especially with respect to the super restrictive housing standards that are imposed on developers and architects. However, in conversations with me, staff from all ranks have been expressing that they disagree with my proposals concerning social housing and that that they worry about the image of the firm and that our work prospects in London and beyond might be compromised due to my highly unpopular ideas on social housing. I had a Q&A session here discussing my ideas and the press backlash. We discussed exactly what we are discussing in this interview, i.e. that I have to be mindful of my position and that it’s hard to separate a general thought leadership from being the figurehead of a prominent firm and that for me this is a new reality since Zaha’s passing.
I have to and want to respect the concerns of my staff about my public discourse and will be more circumspect in the future, out of respect for the interest of the firm and the sentiments of other members of the firm.
Paul: Great, yeah.
Patrik: This does not meant that I’ll altogether give up on my political ideas and their urban development implications. I have been arguing politically in arenas outside of the architectural discipline, i.e. at the ‘Battle of Ideas’ event organized annually in London by the Institute of Ideas, at the European Graduate School, at the Liberland conference, or at the Adam Smith Institute. In the architectural academic discourse I have been less political but I also started here to lecture on a ‘Market-based Urban Order’. If I'm giving a seminar at the European Graduate School, or at the AA or at Harvard’s GSD, where you don't have media snapping up phrases and spinning them, I am arguing my positions and trying to show how these positions link back to that shared humanist compassionate underpinning which always must be the premise of entering such a debate in the first place. In the context of a seminar I am able to articulate that my ideas are not self-serving in any sense, nor elitist in any sense. People who know me know the way I live, communicate, the way I engage, and that I'm not an aloof, elitist person. Far from it.
Paul: Yeah, sure. I feel like the media will do that thing and probably the issue here as well [inaudible 00:19:45]. The context is never complete in any kind of edited article.
Patrik: Of course.
Paul: Actually, that kind of touches on one other question I had about this kind of idea or debating in architecture. You use Facebook more than any other [inaudible 00:20:07] I know I think in the public way which is pretty interesting. How did you begin to use that platform and what kind of benefits do you see from kind of speaking directly to people through Facebook and do you think other architects can utilize it more maybe?
Patrik: Facebook is not the general public in an undifferentiated sense. Although I have sometimes set my posts on public, mostly it’s aimed at my Facebook friends only, which means 4500 friends, many real friends and acquaintances among them, and generally mostly architects. My audience on Facebook is thus different from the audience of the Guardian where my WAF talk was reported and received a lot of very bad comments, or from the indiscriminate audience of the Evening Standard where I got a front page headline. We have to keep that in mind. My Facebook posts are sometimes also stirring controversy, although they are never tying to just generate agitation. They're serious propositions and reflections. Social media like Facebook and Twitter often bring on tough responses, but I have a thick skin, and I'm happy to see pass the invective and don’t mind coming back with answers and counter-comments, if there's at least a hint of an argument. I'll pick up the argument and oftentimes this puts me onto a nice learning curve. To get feedback and to work through some of the objections I encounter on Facebook is very useful for the development of my ideas. Also, if I come back to engage with comments that's usually respected and the initial hostility recedes somewhat in favor of a more constructive exchange.
Oftentimes my posts engender some vile and harsh ad hominem comments. However, as I said, if there's a shred of an argument in there somehow, I might come back constructively. I guess that comes as a surprise to those who spewed the invective. Usually, they shift into discourse mode, when they learn that I am accessible. I find that quite productive and fruitful, to argue across various ideological spectrums, in particular with intelligent and articulate contributors who are also on Facebook, whether it's architectural historians, theoreticians, other architects, or architectural students. I did initiate some quite interesting conversations and debates on Facebook. The extensiveness of commentary and counter-commentary I'm receiving has often been building up to over one hundred comments, much more than you may usually find for instance on Dezeen. That's been encouraging of course. My topics were mostly architectural but I also had some political posts and I touched on planning and gentrification before, but nothing quite as touchy as the privatization of social housing and of public spaces. I never had to feel badly beaten up on Facebook.
Comments in The Guardian were very, very strong and it’s a little bit depressing that this becomes such a vile scene. That's usually not what I'm getting on Facebook. I get the occasional harsh phrase, and as I said, usually I can turn these around. In this case, with the Evening Standard and the Guardian, I just couldn't see myself get into the mud flinging. I came back just with two long statements to clear the air a little bit and to put out my own thinking against what has been reported, but I couldn't get into the trenches. There was no way. I had to pull away from that.
Paul: Yeah, great. Yeah, just bringing it back to architecture [inaudible 00:25:16] politics. Bringing it back to architecture. I just wanted to ask you what's on the drawing board and your current projects and is there any kind of new projects that you're particularly excited about or anything that you're really looking forward to developing in 2017?
Patrik: Yeah, I mentioned the extension of the Berlin National Gallery. We didn't get it. It went to Herzog & DeMeuron by the way. But I am fond of our proposal and I might consider publishing it. We have so many competition wins, commissions and works built or under construction that we haven't actually published any lost competition entries for a long time. So there's a huge pile of projects which nobody has seen which at some point we should perhaps exhibit or publish, all the lost work, all the aborted work. There's a huge invisible part of the iceberg there.
I'm very much looking forward to start Munich concert hall as I mentioned earlier, and we're working on a big mixed use, multi-tower scheme in the center of Frankfurt. That's also a competition we are currently working on. We're always working on multiple competitions. Many buildings are under construction. It's still exciting for me to see how they evolve, like Macau’s City of Dreams, where I’ve recently joined the topping out ceremony, or Beijing Airport, one of the biggest airports in the world, and for us a new adventure.
I'm very much looking forward to start Munich concert hall as I mentioned earlier, and we're working on a big mixed use, multi-tower scheme in the center of Frankfurt. That's also a competition we are currently working on. We're always working on multiple competitions. Many buildings are under construction. It's still exciting for me to see how they evolve, like Macau’s City of Dreams, where I’ve recently joined the topping out ceremony, or Beijing Airport, one of the biggest airports in the world, and for us a new adventure.
Since we won Beijing Airport we have also entered a number of further airport competitions. We were in the short list for Mexico City Airport, as well as Chengdu Airport. Airports represent a totally new level of project for us as traditionally more artistically based firm. I'm excited about that. We're also doing a number of large corporate headquarters. This is another new category for us.
I'm very interested in corporate environments. I consider corporate environments to be one of the most interesting domains where the new complexity and dynamism of our civilization challenges architects most directly. I'm conducting a research project in this domain, trying to understand how complex interaction processes are channeled and facilitated by various spatial configurations with a new degree of complexity, inter-awareness and synergetic interdependence. My research project focusses on the agent-based simulation of the interaction- and occupancy processes in a corporate world. I am trying to generalize circulatory crowd modelling into a generalized life-process modelling. We've been pitching for Google a number of times because Google would be a signal client for me and my research agenda. We have won the competition for a very big new work space for Sberbank in Moscow, for mostly creative development and coding work that's going on in many banks. We also designing a major corporate headquarters for a multi-firm Chinese conglomerate. We're investing in new typologies like the mega atrium tower.
This is an exciting new venture for me, a three-dimensional interior urbanism, opening up towers from within. This type delivers a lot of inter-visibility, inter-awareness, and interaction potential within a truly metropolitan interior world.
There are a lot of interesting, fascinating challenges we hope to get involved in and we have our own internal research team which I'm expanding. I am investing more in research than we have ever done before, in a bid to remain cutting edge. We recently opened a show in our gallery which is called “meta-utopia” about exploring new fabrication possibility based on robotics with contributions from our research group as well as from invited outside contributors. We are investing a lot in developing algorithms and design intelligence related to the design integration of various engineering constraints but also in relation to new robotic fabrication technologies.
There are a lot of interesting, fascinating challenges we hope to get involved in and we have our own internal research team which I'm expanding. I am investing more in research than we have ever done before, in a bid to remain cutting edge. We recently opened a show in our gallery which is called “meta-utopia” about exploring new fabrication possibility based on robotics with contributions from our research group as well as from invited outside contributors. We are investing a lot in developing algorithms and design intelligence related to the design integration of various engineering constraints but also in relation to new robotic fabrication technologies.
However, beyond this focus on new engineering and construction technologies I am most keen to enhance our grip on the social functionality of architecture, in particular with respect to complex corporate spaces, via the development of new computationally based methodologies. Overall we are very driven, eager to make our mark.
I would like to see the firm grow, to make a bigger impact, and not least to fuel the research department. I think to progress further we need to invest in research. Each time I had set another intelligent colleague free to focus on research, the result has been very rewarding. Within a few years many researches - for instance our investment into shells and tensile structures - started in the teaching arenas, migrated into small experimental structures, then into small buildings, and are now scaling up to large projects. We're full of energy and enthusiasm about developing the firm forward.
I would like to see the firm grow, to make a bigger impact, and not least to fuel the research department. I think to progress further we need to invest in research. Each time I had set another intelligent colleague free to focus on research, the result has been very rewarding. Within a few years many researches - for instance our investment into shells and tensile structures - started in the teaching arenas, migrated into small experimental structures, then into small buildings, and are now scaling up to large projects. We're full of energy and enthusiasm about developing the firm forward.
Paul: Wonderful. Yeah, so just to finish off thinking about the A+ award. Are there any particular qualities you look for when you're assessing work and what kind of projects will stand out for you in this year's awards submissions?
Patrik: Well, I expect we're looking for originality, innovation of course, but also excellence and the compelling application of the new ideas. Excellence and originality come together only rarely. Usually ideas have to move across several attempts at implementation by several authors before they reach maturity and excellence. So I think we have to allow for both striking originality and compelling excellency to count as award worthy.
Even at ZHA we must balance the pursuit of originality with the delivery of excellency. We are now very mature and can deliver global best practice. However, we always are also looking for moments of originality, for an innovative aspect in each project.
In each project, even in well-rehearsed project types, we are looking for an element or aspect through which the project can be pointing beyond itself and become a manifesto for things to come. In large projects that can only be a certain aspects, of the project. Small projects – especially in the context of the art world – can indeed become predominantly manifesto projects. That’s why we are still keen to pick up small cultural projects, even if it’s no longer possible for us to avoid running a financial loss on such smaller projects. But such projects can be great R&D vehicles.
Even at ZHA we must balance the pursuit of originality with the delivery of excellency. We are now very mature and can deliver global best practice. However, we always are also looking for moments of originality, for an innovative aspect in each project.
In each project, even in well-rehearsed project types, we are looking for an element or aspect through which the project can be pointing beyond itself and become a manifesto for things to come. In large projects that can only be a certain aspects, of the project. Small projects – especially in the context of the art world – can indeed become predominantly manifesto projects. That’s why we are still keen to pick up small cultural projects, even if it’s no longer possible for us to avoid running a financial loss on such smaller projects. But such projects can be great R&D vehicles.
Paul: Yeah. Wonderful.
Patrik: I think awards are an important part of the discursive culture of architecture. Awards are important to pick out the best and brightest of the upcoming generation. Something original with future potential is more than ever the most noteworthy within our discourse and discipline. That's also reflected in the history of architecture. It’s always the original advances that are most remembered and recorded for posterity, but only if they are picked up again and again until they reach the moment of excellence or perfection. Only an avant-garde that ends up delivering a new mainstream will be remembered as an important avant-garde. Again, that’s why awards should honor both originality and excellence.
Paul: Yeah, wonderful. That was all my questions. Is there anything else you would like to add at all?
Patrik: No, I'm happy. I think I said what I wanted to say.
Paul: Thank you so much. I'll be in touch. Thanks, Patrik.
Patrik: Sure. Pleasure.
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